39 replies to this topic

[DarkerCompanion]

So with the improvement to Tech Armor, I did a lot of research into the DR system, and found, like most people, that the listed value is not actually what you get. A lot of people far more mathematically savvy have done a lot of testing. A good source for this information is here:
http://social.biowar...ndex/11481777/1
and
http://social.biowar.../index/11485213

I don't take any credit for the work they have done, I am merely doing some additional guesswork using their data.

These forum-goers have provided significant evidence that the DR only applies to 75% of your health, meaning that a DR of 100% would come out to only 75%, or 40% coming out to only 30%. Some testing has found that it is possible to reach 100% invulnerability, but these circumstances are very limited at this time. Clearly, there is still more math at work here that I certainly am not aware of. That being said, I decided to do a bit of my own math, using the information we currently have available; I roughly calculated the functional health every class in the game has, assuming you have maxed Fitness and are using their best DR abilities. Furthermore, I included a list of common DR percentages, their functional DR, and the number you use to find out the functional health your character has, so you can figure out your own combinations of health/DR.

First, in order from highest to lowest, are a list of the classes at their highest health/DR. The number in parenthesis is the listed DR, while the percentage outside of the parenthesis is their functional DR.


1. Krogan Sentinel
Maxed Tech Armor- (50)37.5% = 5180
Maxed Tech Armor with Maxed Rage - (80)60% = 8092
 
2. Krogan Vanguard
Maxed Barrier - (40)30%  = 5285
Maxed Barrier with (currently bugged) Maxed Rage - (70)52.5% = 7789 

3. Krogan Soldier
Maxed Fortification - (40)30% = 4624
Maxed Fortification with Maxed Rage - (70)52.5% = 6814
 
4. Asari Justicar
Normal - 0% = 1815
Maxed Reave OR Bubble - (40)30% = 2592
Maxed Reave AND Bubble - (80)60% = 4537
 
5. Human Soldier
Normal - 0% = 1650
Maxed Adrenaline Rush - (40)30% = 3535 
 
6-7. Batarian Soldier/Sentinel
Maxed Blade Armor - (40)30% = 3537

8. Turian Sentinel
Maxed Tech Armor - (50)37.5% = 3300
 
9. Human Sentinel
Maxed Tech Armor - (50)37.5% = 2640
 
10-11. Salarian Infiltrator/Engineer
Normal - 0% = 1815
Maxed Shield Drain - (40)30% = 2592
 
12. Turian Soldier
Normal - 0% = 2063
 
13. Drell Adept
Normal - 0% = 1350
Maxed Reave - (40)30% = 1928

14-15. Male Quarian Infiltrator/Engineer
Normal - 0% = 1925

16-17. Female Quarian Infiltrator/Engineer
Normal - 0% = 1815
 
18-19. Vorcha Soldier/Sentinel
Normal - 0% = 1751

20-21. Geth Infiltrator/Engineer
Normal - 0% = 1651
Hunter Mode - 0% =  1032
 
22-29. All Other Humans + Asari + Phoenixes
Normal - 0% = 1650
 
30. Drell Vanguard
Normal - 0% = 1350

If you have a different combination of health and DR, you can find your own combination by taking your total health/shields and dividing it by the decimal in the "divide by" column.


Listed DR         Actual DR          Divide By for Total
20                           15                                .85
25                           18.75                          .81
30                           22.5                             .78
35                            26.25                          .74
40                            30                                .70
45                            33.75                          .66
50                           37.5                              .625
55                            41.25                          .59
60                            45                                .55
65                            48.75                          .51
70                            52.5                             .475
75                            56.25                          .44
80                            60                                .40


All Heavy Melees add 50% DR (37.5 functional DR), except for the Batarians, who are believed to get 75% DR (56.25% functional DR). To calculate Heavy Melee DR, subtract .37 from your "divide by" number, unless its a batarian, in which case you subtract .56. For instance, a 30% Blade Armor Batarian would divide by .78, but during a Heavy Melee, it would be about .22.
A Justicar's Bubble can add 20, 30, or 40% DR (15, 22.5, or 30% functional DR) depending on its level. Subtract .15, .22, or .30 depending on how much the bubble adds, if you can find out.
Being behind cover and facing said cover provides 40% DR (30% functional DR). Subtract .30 from your divide by total to calculate cover DR.

The thread I linked to indicates that a Batarian soldier in a Justicar Bubble, with maxed BA and in a Heavy Melee is invulnerable at 145% listed DR. An approximation of this number SHOULD be possible to reach through several other combinations. Being behind cover and in a Justicar bubble can add as much as 80%, so theoretically this can be reached through the following conditions:

• Any Raged Krogan with maxed Rage/DR Power, in a Biotic Bubble and Behind Cover should be able to reach 150%, with the Sentinel reaching 160%
  
  
  
• Any meleeing Raged Krogan with maxed Rage/DR Power, while in a BB, should be able to reach 160%, with the Sentinel reaching 170%
  
  
  
• A Raged Krogan Sentinel with maxed Rage/DR power meleeing should hit 130%, VERY close.
  
  
  
• A Turian/Human Sentinel with maxed Tech Armor, inside of a maxed Bubble and Heavy Meleeing should also be able to reach 140%.

Anyone who feels up to testing these scenarios would probably be providing a lot for the research in this area. I myself, unfortunately, don't have anyone who has a 40% DR spec'd BB to work with. I also want to point out that there are other factors at work here, and this is just a rough guess as to the DR system; I know right now its not entirely accurate, and I've never heard of anyone except the Batarian reaching invulnerability. But I figured this resource might be useful to some people.

Edited by DarkerCompanion, 14 July 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[Shotokanguy]

Goofy. Most RPGs with a method of damage reduction don't allow the player to reach 100% damage nullification.

And I don't understand why the listed value is a lie.

But whatever. Thanks for the stats, it's nice to know what each class is capable of. I'm never playing a Drell Vanguard. A class based on close combat, and it's the one with the least health in the game. Ha.

[DarkerCompanion]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Goofy. Most RPGs with a method of damage reduction don't allow the player to reach 100% damage nullification.

And I don't understand why the listed value is a lie.

But whatever. Thanks for the stats, it's nice to know what each class is capable of. I'm never playing a Drell Vanguard. A class based on close combat, and it's the one with the least health in the game. Ha.

Well, so far as I am aware, the ONLY time anyone has reached 100% damage reduction is with the Batarian heavy melee with Blade Armor in a Biotic Bubble. I've never heard of Krogan Sentinels doing the same, so it might be an oversight. Even so, its important, since a lot of people think "Hey, I've got 50% DR now!" but really they don't. Probably hurts the Krogan Sentinel and Asari Justicar more than anyone else, since they go from 80% listed to 60% functional.

And yeah . . . poor Drell Vanguard. Only class who is weaker than him is a Hunter mode Geth, and one of them can cloak while the other has a healing turret.

Edited by DarkerCompanion, 27 May 2012 - 06:01 AM.

[Cyonan]

My numbers all appear to be pretty much the same, other than the fact that I rounded to the nearest decimal so a couple of characters on my list have 1 more point of effective health than they do on your list.

It feels rather saddening that the Turian Soldier has barely any more EH than the Drell Adept does, because of Reave.

[DarkerCompanion]

It is sad. I have a feeling that when, back during the demo, people freaked out about the Turian's lack of a roll, it was considered a knee-jerk reaction. Well, here we are 3 months later, and the Turian (Soldier) is still suffering inordinately for a decision that never seemed quite reasonable. And I don't think giving him more health is the answer, because then it offsets the health balance with the Batarians/Krogans. I think both Turians either need a sidestep dodge or Marksman needs to give some DR. 30% would be enough to knock him up to above the Salarians and the Human Sentinel, which is honestly fair, since Marksman prohibits use of his other powers.

[Cyonan]

I think a damage reduction effect would be best for them, probably tied to Marksman, like Adrenaline Rush has for the Human Soldier.

It would give them a boost of EH that would put them up with the other heavies(Krogan and Batarian), and at the same time wouldn't send the Turian Sentinel's EH skyrocketing like a flat boost to Turian health would.

Also on a side note, the Drell Vanguard has really low EH, but they also have better in-combat shield regen than a Human or Asari Vanguard via Biotic Charge. The only thing with better regen is the Kroguard, and Salarians(Who are actually #1) under the best circumstance(Max recharge speed without consumables). Of course, it doesn't matter against a Human Vanguard because invincibility frames of nova.

Edited by Cyonan, 27 May 2012 - 06:17 AM.

[DarkerCompanion]

Honestly, I think Marksman is a remarkably weak power anyway. This would be enough to make it worthwhile.

I can't begin to count the number of times I used it and got stuck sitting there waiting for it to wear off so I could use Concussive Shots to save me from a quickly approaching enemy who I couldn't shoot to death in time. The cooldown reduction from recent patches helps, but it still lasts like, 10 seconds.

Can't use powers, can't even take bonus power like AR, doesn't give DR, doesn't increase health . . . why bother? I'm considering building my next Turian as a CS/PM spammer and not even using Marksman.

[DarkerCompanion]

Bah, accidentally double posted. Oops.

Why does the drell have higher shield regen than the Human/Asari Vanguards? Is his charge faster?

Edited by DarkerCompanion, 27 May 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Cyonan]

DarkerCompanion wrote...
Why does the drell have higher shield regen than the Human/Asari Vanguards? Is his charge faster?

His charge isn't faster, but with Fitness he has higher shields than the Human or Asari do. It's his health that drags him down, rather than his shields. It is admittedly fairly small however, as it's a 9% increase over the Human/Asari.

I was thinking of making a tanking guide, so I ran through pretty much every number related to taking hits in this game =P

Edited by Cyonan, 27 May 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[DarkerCompanion]

Cyonan wrote...

His charge isn't faster, but with Fitness he has higher shields than the Human or Asari do. It's his health that drags him down, rather than his shields. It is admittedly fairly small however, as it's a 9% increase over the Human/Asari.

I was thinking of making a tanking guide, so I ran through pretty much every number related to taking hits in this game =P

I'm . . . 90% certain you have that reversed. His health is 900, and his shields are 450. He actually has terrible shields, and relatively bulky health, which is worthless since halfway through the round he is down to 1 bar usually. A Drell Vanguard with 1 health bar left has the worst health in the game (assuming maxed fitness): 630 total combined health/shields.

I could be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure its the shields which are weak.

[Cyonan]

DarkerCompanion wrote...
I'm . . . 90% certain you have that reversed. His health is 900, and his shields are 450. He actually has terrible shields, and relatively bulky health, which is worthless since halfway through the round he is down to 1 bar usually. A Drell Vanguard with 1 health bar left has the worst health in the game (assuming maxed fitness): 630 total combined health/shields.

I could be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure its the shields which are weak.

Doubled checked it and so I do have it wrong. Not sure why I thought he had higher shields.

Which means that he has barely better regeneration than a Geth Turret specced for shield regen.

[DarkerCompanion]

Cyonan wrote...

Doubled checked it and so I do have it wrong. Not sure why I thought he had higher shields.

Which means that he has barely better regeneration than a Geth Turret specced for shield regen.

Yeah, its really unfortunate. Many proposed buffs to the drell involve swapping his barriers and health. After all, thats how Vanguards work; they charge in, rely on barriers to absorb damage, then charge in again when they can. The drell's MAXIMUM shields are lower than the shields of a Human/Asari vanguard with no Fitness at all, so he ends up relying on Health, which gets whittled down throughout a match. The average vanguard probably takes 20 times more shield damage at LEAST than health damage, and the Drell is designed to take Health damage instead.

As many people say; he is literally designed in the worst way possible. Worst power in the game, terrible synergy, designed for close range combat with crappy total health and is the only class in the game with less shields than health, despite relying on shields more than non-vanguards.

[Nereithr]

They really have to buff up drell shields to at least 400. 450 shiields with maxed fitness is just ridiculous. And they better not nerf his health.

Edited by Nereithr, 27 May 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Broganisity]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Honestly, I think Marksman is a remarkably weak power anyway. This would be enough to make it worthwhile.

I hate that I agree here.

A Geth Engineer with accuracy/ROF specc'd Hunter Mode, using a Stability mod on a Revenant is effectively a Turian Soldier who can heal...kinda why the only soldier classes I bother with are Human and Krogan. Why worry about having to activate marksman when I have a class that has it on 24/7 and can repair it's shields?

[Nereithr]

Broganisity wrote...

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Honestly, I think Marksman is a remarkably weak power anyway. This would be enough to make it worthwhile.

I hate that I agree here.

A Geth Engineer with accuracy/ROF specc'd Hunter Mode, using a Stability mod on a Revenant is effectively a Turian Soldier who can heal...kinda why the only soldier classes I bother with are Human and Krogan. Why worry about having to activate marksman when I have a class that has it on 24/7 and can repair it's shields?

Try claymore/talon with TS. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[Broganisity]

Nereithr wrote...

Broganisity wrote...

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Honestly, I think Marksman is a remarkably weak power anyway. This would be enough to make it worthwhile.

I hate that I agree here.

A Geth Engineer with accuracy/ROF specc'd Hunter Mode, using a Stability mod on a Revenant is effectively a Turian Soldier who can heal...kinda why the only soldier classes I bother with are Human and Krogan. Why worry about having to activate marksman when I have a class that has it on 24/7 and can repair it's shields?

Try claymore/talon with TS. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Oh I have. I just prefer my the assault rifles on the turian soldier.

And even then, i can do roughly the same thing with the Gethgineer.

[DarkerCompanion]

Nereithr wrote...

They really have to buff up drell shields to at least 400. 450 shiields with maxed fitness is just ridiculous. And they better not nerf his health.

Oddly enough, the Drell gets MORE from Fitness than other classes. All the other classes in the game get a 65% Health/Shields boost from maxed Fitness, but the Drell gets 80%.

400 shields would then put it at 720, which I think goes against their idea. As I mentioned before, I'd personally rather see them switch health and shields. This, plus their 900 health, leaves them only 30 health short of the asari and humans. If they switched, Bioware could keep its weird obsession with keeping the Drell fragile without ruining the class.

Broganisity wrote...
A Geth Engineer with accuracy/ROF specc'd Hunter Mode, using a Stability mod on a Revenant is effectively a Turian Soldier who can heal...kinda why the only soldier classes I bother with are Human and Krogan. Why worry

Don't forget the ability to roll and have one of the highest DPS Overloads in the game! Low health is its downside, but the turret draws fire too.

[Broganisity]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Broganisity wrote...
A Geth Engineer with accuracy/ROF specc'd Hunter Mode, using a Stability mod on a Revenant is effectively a Turian Soldier who can heal...kinda why the only soldier classes I bother with are Human and Krogan. Why worry

Don't forget the ability to roll and have one of the highest DPS Overloads in the game! Low health is its downside, but the turret draws fire too.

Not to mention the superior melee...But this isn't the thread about why turians need some patch love...though it sure does help prove a point.

Edited by Broganisity, 27 May 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[DarkerCompanion]

Broganisity wrote...

Not to mention the superior melee...But this isn't the thread about why turians need some patch love...though it sure does help prove a point.

Heh, I actually made this entire list because I was reading in the Turian mobility thread. I think it serves to illustrate some glaring oversights in the game, which is just important to me as being a useful resource. The most obvious, of course, are the Drell Vanguard and Turian Soldier. On the other hand, it makes me think the Justicar is TOO good, and then I remember that she is literally my least played class because I find her useless in actual gameplay. So I figure I will let it slide.

[GodlessPaladin]

Illustrates some of what I've been saying all along about the Turian Soldier being one of the squishiest around. He has unimpressive "true" health as well as very little in terms of defensive tools.  Just about everything else that's lower on the list has meaningful defensive tools, such as tactical cloak, buffed movement speed, potent CC, and handy dodges.  The Turian Soldier is just dying for a roll.

Anywho, thanks for the handy chart, OP 

Edited by GodlessPaladin, 27 May 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[DarkerCompanion]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Illustrates some of what I've been saying all along about the Turian Soldier being one of the squishiest around. He has unimpressive "true" health as well as very little in terms of defensive tools.  Just about everything else that's lower on the list has meaningful defensive tools, such as tactical cloak, buffed movement speed, potent CC, and handy dodges.  The Turian Soldier is just dying for a roll.

Completely right about the people lower than him.

I was thinking about this more later on. Of the 12 classes who are less durable than him:
3 can cloak
3 can Biotic charge
3 have tech summons who can distract enemies
1 knows stasis (actually, 2 know stasis, but one of those also had Charge)
That leaves TWO without significant distraction/disabler/regen methods, in the form of the Human and Drell Adepts. The Drell Adept is the closest class to the Turian's health when his DR is taken into account, and has phenomenal movement speed and a great roll. Which leaves only the Human Adept as equally incapable of either evading/distraction/healing.

Edited by DarkerCompanion, 27 May 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[DarkerCompanion]

I figure I will give this one more bump, just in case. If there isn't much interest, I will let it die, if there is, I will try to keep it up for a while.

[DarkerCompanion]

Bump, because I'm in a pro-Turian/Krogan mood today and this illustrates some points.

[ThatDamnSalarian]

Is there a video somewhere showing 140% DR? Or invulnerability?

[Prodicus]

Interesting and helpful - thanks, OP!