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#1
Alfonsedode

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I was trying to find datas on combo's radius and force (mainly) and that's quite hard to gather.
The recent thread on pull was not conclusive on either combos detonation AoE originate from the detonator power point of impact or either from the primed target.
For a list of combos and their basic principles, please go to Relix28's thread.
For a detailed thread with all math involved and most basic principles, look at corlist's test there.

Edit : after patient explanations form MGW7, it s pretty clear now : (I was going to quote MGW7 but i ll rewrite it a bit :))
 
1. Detonation point and multiple priming handling by the game.
Each power can only detonate as many explosions as there are projectiles or impact points for power like Shockwave (see below). All other targets in range of each projectile loose one layer of priming, but don't get extra detonations (after the first one).
Exemple : cluster grenades have two projectiles, so can detonate twice, but the first grenade can remove the prime from all targets before the second gets the chance to detonate. On the other side, Reave has one projectile, and can only detonate once.

The use of the expression "layer of priming" is important because a target can be primed for multiple detonations. Being in the aoe from a detonator power removes 1 layer of priming (not in the area of the actual combo explosion!), so if an enemy is both primed for a tech burst and fire explosion (in that order of detonation) cluster grenades will cause a tech burst and a fire explosion.

A target cannot be primed with the same layer type twice: you cannot have 2 layers of biotic priming. But you can reach 4 layers of priming (BE, FE, CE, TB).

The combo detonation is centered at the detonator power impact point. For hitscan powers this happens to be the enemy. For Area Reave or Nades, it s not the case.

Snap Freeze is bugged and detonate in front of the caster.
Poison Strike detonation is also centered (1 - 3 m ?) in front of the starting point.

If 4 enemies are primed for one different explosion each, 1 for tb, 1 for fe, 1 for ce, 1 for be, and are all hit by a single projectile detonator, you will get one explosion depending on which enemy is handled first by the game, but you will not be able to detonate any of the others afterwards.

Powers like shockwave and biotic slash create multiple points of impact, and can detonate multiple targets as long as previous impacts didn't unprimed enemies.
 
Three Cannibals primed with one Incendiary Round boosted venom shot and hit by 3 instance of chain overload will suffer 3 FE :).
[/quote]


On radius and force i only found the thread from GodlessPaladin and weekly balance change.

2. Radius
So it seems all combos have a radius scaling from 2 to 4 m except for TB scaling from 4.5 to 7.5m. But this last walue doesn t appear in weekly balance change (and so might need verification).
Anyway, I guess the radius evolution follow the same formula as the damage one.
I have only found one power evo that enhance combos radius and it s warp 4b for BE.

3. Force
Values are given in GodlessPaladin's thread.
But as damage have evolved to [100-250] for all combos I wonder if forces have been tailored too ?
BE force : 500-1000 N
TB force : 200-450 N
FE force : 300-600 N
CE force : 200-450 N
All power evos boosting BE boost both damage and force. I haven t check TB CE FE.

4. Bugged power evo which boost or should boost combos
I have only 2 bugged evo for now :

  • Paladin SF 6b does nothing, however 4b reach gives 2 times boosted CE if SF is used as a primer.
  • Electric slash detonate 5a tech combos *2 has no efffect

IIRC SF 6b works fine on the AIU for all Tech combos detonated and primed?
Note that Warp detonate evo 4b only boost BEs.
 
I ll try to add some basics bellow as i remind them :
 
5. COMBOS IGNORE SHIELD GATE
 
6. COMBOs TARGET CAP is 4
while grenades have none and do damage through walls ... beware of swarmers...
 
7. Defense multipliers
BE have a golbal *2 multiplier against barrier and armor, FE against armor, and TB against shield.
 
8. Priming window duration :
Most priming window durations are the primer duration (warp/DC ...). Most tech primers have a 3 seconds primer (ED, incinerate). Overload is notably different with a 5 sec priming effect.
Primers such as Arc Grenades (with bleed damage), Submission Net and Inferno Grenades, can be detonated any time throughout the duration of the DoT.
The backfire effect of sabotage takes effect 1.5 sec after the cast and prime for TB for 2 sec, except on synthetics. Sabotage doesn't have a backfire effect on synthetics, and so doesnt prime them.
Flamer primes for 5 sec after stopping it.
 
9. Chaining combos :
Powers dealing direct damage can detonate a combo and prime for another in a single cast. The key point is to detonate a combo of one type and priming for another.
Ex : Incinerate>warp>throw give one FE and then one BE.
Characters that can self chain combos like this are the HE (incinerate and overload) and the QME (arc nades and incinerate)
Chaining two BE with 3 casts is also possible in 2 configs :
-Singularity detonate evo 6b : Singularity>warp>warp give a second BE when singularity vanishes if explosion evo 6b was chosen
-Biotic sphere both detonate (BE/TB/CE/FE) on deployment and then prime for BE if warp effect evo 6b is chosen.
 
Thx for any input.

EDIT
I have finished a spreadsheet for having the values of combos damage force and radius.
A bit too much details maybe and few missing ones. I used the same formula for force and radius with no scaling.

For just the calculator, use this one.


Edited by Alfonsedode, 17 May 2016 - 12:53 PM.

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#2
RedCaesar97

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This thread by Relix28 may or may not have the information you are looking for.

#3
Alfonsedode

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Nothing about radius and force in it :)

And by the way i don t know much about force -> damage conversion ? nothing, 10 % or more if impacting walls or ground ?

Edited by alfonsedode, 15 January 2014 - 12:37 PM.


#4
MGW7

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The explosion happens at the base of the detonators impact, on most powers, like throw or overload, that means approximately where the primed enemy is standing, however, on broad untargeted aoe powers this isn't necessarily true,

snap freeze impacts from the player, so the explosion happens at the player
explosions detonated by grenades happen where the grenade exploded
electric hammer detonates at the head of the hammer

this can create situations where primed enemies are detonated, but not hit by the detonation, or where detonations can appear to originate at unprimed enemies,

#5
Jeremiah12LGeek

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From that other thread you linked, regarding point of impact, a couple of posts obfuscated the point in a strange way, but the basic concept was there.

If you prime a target, and detonate a target, that target is the center of the combo explosion. The combo will not center on the caster.

Since you can't prime a target that isn't a an enemy unit, Token was drawing a logical conclusion that lacked clarification, but the repeated "ftfy" stuff without clarification was just confusing.

If you have a detonator with an AoE, it doesn't necessarily have to hit the target directly to detonate it, as long as the target is in the radius of the AoE, it will be detonated. If more than one target is in the AoE that is primed, you will set off as many combo explosions as the detonating power is allowed to damage directly.

I'll clarify: Cluster grenades have no limit on the number of targets they can damage, so if there are 8 primed units standing in a cluster, the grenades will detonate all eight of them, if they are within the range of the Area of Effect.

Reave can only damage up to 3 targets, so even if 8 primed units managed to be within Reave's AoE, only the three closest would be detonated.

Reave is a hitscan power, so each detonated target would become the center of an explosion. The three combos would not all center on the same unit, each of the three impacted targets would detonate separately as the center of its own explosion.


EDIT: Below are corrections/clarifications to my error.

Edited by Jeremiah12LGeek, 15 January 2014 - 01:37 PM.


#6
MGW7

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Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
, it will be detonated. If more than one target is in the AoE that is primed, you will set off as many combo explosions as the detonating power is allowed to damage directly.

I'll clarify: Cluster grenades have no limit on the number of targets they can damage, so if there are 8 primed units standing in a cluster, the grenades will detonate all eight of them, if they are within the range of the Area of Effect.

Reave can only damage up to 3 targets, so even if 8 primed units managed to be within Reave's AoE, only the three closest would be detonated.


each power can only detonate as may explosions as there are projectiles, all other targets in range of each projectile lose a layer of priming, but don't get extra detonations, cluster grenades have two projectiles, so can detonate twice, but the first grenade can remove the prime from all targets before the second gets the chance to detonate, reave has one projectile, and can only detonate once

I say a layer of priming because a target can be primed for multiple detonations, being in the aoe from a detonator removes 1 prime, so if an enemies is both primed for a tech burst and fire explosion (in that order of detonation) cluster grenades will cause a tech burst and a fire explosion

Edit
In the other thread I said the source of the detonator, I did not mean the caster (although for snap freeze this is the case) I meant the projectile that created the detonation, for hitscan powers this happens to be the enemy,

edit edit

If you prime many enemies for one different explosion each, 1 for tb, 1 for fe, 1 for ce, 1 for be, and hit all of them with a single projectile detonator, you will get one explosion depending on which enemy is handled first by the game, but you will not be able to detonate any of the others

Powers like shockwave and biotic slash create multiple points of impact, and can detonate multiple targets as long as previous impacts didn't unprimed enemies

Edited by MGW7, 15 January 2014 - 01:42 PM.

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#7
Deerber

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Your best bet for information on the radius is probably the weekly balance changes thread. They were touched a lot at first. Force... Not really sure, but my guess would be that they still are what Godless wrote down and were not changed. Cyonan would know more, I guess... Or even Tyhw, if you manage to get his attention ;)

#8
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.

#9
Deerber

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Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


No need to bother Jery, MG is correct. Each power instance can only detonate one explosion. The only powers that can detonate more are those that have multiple instances (clusters, shockwave... Maybe slash too, can't recall)

#10
FuriousFelicia

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I think that you can only set off one BE per target that's in the radius of the blast. That means if you have two brutes close together, and you prime them both with say reave, you will only ddetonate one BE, unless the other brute is outside of the blast radius of the first BE.

So you can only do multiple BEs if their blasts don't intersect. I don't know if this is true for certain but IIRC that's the way it works.

Edit: note that I'm talking about simultanious multiple BEs, not consecutive BEs like singularity-shockwave. So two BEs at the same time - can't happen if their blasts intersect. 
Blasting two brutes primed with singularity detonated by shockwave can set off consecutive BEs. Note the distinction. 

Again, this may not be a fact. I just seem to remember reading something like that long ago. 

Edited by FuriousFelicia, 15 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.


#11
Deerber

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Ah, and chain overload of course!

#12
MGW7

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FuriousFelicia wrote...

I think that you can only set off one BE per target that's in the radius of the blast. That means if you have two brutes close together, and you prime them both with say reave, you will only ddetonate one BE, unless the other brute is outside of the blast radius of the first BE.

So you can only do multiple BEs if their blasts don't intersect. I don't know if this is true for certain but IIRC that's the way it works.

It's the area of the detonator, detonations have no effect on the priming of targets

#13
NuclearTech76

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Deerber wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


No need to bother Jery, MG is correct. Each power instance can only detonate one explosion. The only powers that can detonate more are those that have multiple instances (clusters, shockwave... Maybe slash too, can't recall)

Yep. One detonation per projectile. Clusters can detonate three combo explosions if shrapnel evo is taken. 

#14
NuclearTech76

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MGW7 wrote...

FuriousFelicia wrote...

I think that you can only set off one BE per target that's in the radius of the blast. That means if you have two brutes close together, and you prime them both with say reave, you will only ddetonate one BE, unless the other brute is outside of the blast radius of the first BE.

So you can only do multiple BEs if their blasts don't intersect. I don't know if this is true for certain but IIRC that's the way it works.

It's the area of the detonator, detonations have no effect on the priming of targets

Ah and the other part that was bugging me cause my memory is crap is here. AOE of detonating power effects number of prospective combo explosions, one per the detonator's AOE. That's why it's arguable that diminished radius is better on clusters if going for combo explosions.

Edited by NuclearTech76, 15 January 2014 - 01:34 PM.


#15
Jeremiah12LGeek

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NuclearTech76 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


No need to bother Jery, MG is correct. Each power instance can only detonate one explosion. The only powers that can detonate more are those that have multiple instances (clusters, shockwave... Maybe slash too, can't recall)

Yep. One detonation per projectile. Clusters can detonate three combo explosions if shrapnel evo is taken. 


I suppose the more I think about it, on Platinum, AoE detonators would be abusrdly overpowered if what I said was true. I'll edit it.

Edited by Jeremiah12LGeek, 15 January 2014 - 01:38 PM.


#16
Deerber

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NuclearTech76 wrote...

MGW7 wrote...

FuriousFelicia wrote...

I think that you can only set off one BE per target that's in the radius of the blast. That means if you have two brutes close together, and you prime them both with say reave, you will only ddetonate one BE, unless the other brute is outside of the blast radius of the first BE.

So you can only do multiple BEs if their blasts don't intersect. I don't know if this is true for certain but IIRC that's the way it works.

It's the area of the detonator, detonations have no effect on the priming of targets

Ah and the other part that was bugging me cause my memory is crap is here. AOE of detonating power effects number of prospective combo explosions, one per the detonator's AOE. That's why it's arguable that diminished radius is better on clusters if going for combo explosions.


Yup. Radius on the drellguard if you like it, but definitely damage on the adept. Although the multiple BE is pretty much a unicorn...

#17
NuclearTech76

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Deerber wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

MGW7 wrote...

FuriousFelicia wrote...

I think that you can only set off one BE per target that's in the radius of the blast. That means if you have two brutes close together, and you prime them both with say reave, you will only ddetonate one BE, unless the other brute is outside of the blast radius of the first BE.

So you can only do multiple BEs if their blasts don't intersect. I don't know if this is true for certain but IIRC that's the way it works.

It's the area of the detonator, detonations have no effect on the priming of targets

Ah and the other part that was bugging me cause my memory is crap is here. AOE of detonating power effects number of prospective combo explosions, one per the detonator's AOE. That's why it's arguable that diminished radius is better on clusters if going for combo explosions.


Yup. Radius on the drellguard if you like it, but definitely damage on the adept. Although the multiple BE is pretty much a unicorn...

I get multiple combo explosions all the time but I use the Venom with Incendiary. Heck I've gotten a FE then BE on the same target in one throw. One piece direct hit the other detonated a split second later.

#18
FuriousFelicia

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Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


If you prime 3 cannibals using incindiary ammo, and then deonate with chain overload, you can get 3 FEs only if the 3 cannibals are standing apart from each other far enough that the blasts from each individual FE don't touch/intersect. 

Otherwise you might get 2 or just 1 if they are standing close together. 

Bottom line - one target can not be affected by two explosions at same time. 

#19
FuriousFelicia

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Also I'd like a confirmation on this: ammo based combos can't do what power based combos can.

Eg - atlas can't be FE until his shields are up using shoot - detonate tehnique. But it sure makes a boom when combining two powers. (Incinerate+overload) regardless of shields.

#20
MGW7

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NuclearTech76 wrote...

I get multiple combo explosions all the time but I use the Venom with Incendiary. Heck I've gotten a FE then BE on the same target in one throw. One piece direct hit the other detonated a split second later.


As I said, each remove one layer, so it is theoretically possible to detonate the same enemy four times with one power, but there is no four projectile detonator that detonates BEs, so the effective limit is three combos from one enemy from one power
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#21
MGW7

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FuriousFelicia wrote...

Also I'd like a confirmation on this: ammo based combos can't do what power based combos can.

Eg - atlas can't be FE until his shields are up using shoot - detonate tehnique. But it sure makes a boom when combining two powers. (Incinerate+overload) regardless of shields.

INC ammo can't prime shields or barriers, that is a property of the ammo, like how pull can't prime armor for a BE, it just happens that other fire primers are allowed to prime shields/ barriers

#22
FuriousFelicia

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I think it was BroJo that said in one of past threads about this that myou can prime multiple targets for BEs but you can only detonate once per prime.
I think he used stasis as an example for this.

#23
MGW7

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FuriousFelicia wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


If you prime 3 cannibals using incindiary ammo, and then deonate with chain overload, you can get 3 FEs only if the 3 cannibals are standing apart from each other far enough that the blasts from each individual FE don't touch/intersect. 

Otherwise you might get 2 or just 1 if they are standing close together. 

Bottom line - one target can not be affected by two explosions at same time. 

You should get three detonations, unless overload hit's two cannibals at once, in which case both will lose the fire prime, but only one detonation,

It is possible for one target to be hit by multiple explosions, the limiting factor is the radius of the detonation powers impact, if it is greater than the radius of the BEs, it is improbable for people to be hit by two by virtue that the detonations have to be farther apart*

FuriousFelicia wrote...

I think it was BroJo that said in one of past threads about this that you can prime multiple targets for BEs but you can only detonate once per prime.
I think he used stasis as an example for this.

They intended to only get on explosion per cast, but the game was "bugged", and you could get multiple detonations from multi part powers, but it worked so well they kept it

Any enemy in the radius of the detonator will lose one layer of priming. so if CG had a 200 meter radius you would only ever get one BE unless an enemy either had a second prime, to shield the first, or was outside the radius for the first one one, but hit by the second

Edit for*
Because combos happen at the source it is possible to hit two distant enemies and get three detonations close together, just improbable

Edited by MGW7, 15 January 2014 - 02:03 PM.


#24
FuriousFelicia

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MGW7 wrote...

FuriousFelicia wrote...

Also I'd like a confirmation on this: ammo based combos can't do what power based combos can.

Eg - atlas can't be FE until his shields are up using shoot - detonate tehnique. But it sure makes a boom when combining two powers. (Incinerate+overload) regardless of shields.

INC ammo can't prime shields or barriers, that is a property of the ammo, like how pull can't prime armor for a BE, it just happens that other fire primers are allowed to prime shields/ barriers


thanks for the confirmation:wizard:

#25
Deerber

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FuriousFelicia wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'll read through the other linked threads and test it when I get back, using FEs.


If you prime 3 cannibals using incindiary ammo, and then deonate with chain overload, you can get 3 FEs only if the 3 cannibals are standing apart from each other far enough that the blasts from each individual FE don't touch/intersect. 

Otherwise you might get 2 or just 1 if they are standing close together. 

Bottom line - one target can not be affected by two explosions at same time. 


This is wrong. It's entirely possible for a target to be affected by 3 explosions using only one detonator. Oy, the conditions must be right. You seem to keep thinking that being hit by am explosion deprimes a target, but that's not true. Being hit by a detonator that has already detonated a combo deprimes a target. So in other words, what you want to avoid is one of your AoE detonator to hit multiple targets.

So, the best way to make a target suffer from 3 combos using only 1 detonator is actually the example you provided: using chain overload. Since it has no radius, there's no chance to deprime targets. You prime 3 enemies, you cast chain overload and bam - 3 combos, 100% of the times. Sirian and company made a speedrun based on this back in the days... Sooooo many broken glasses :lol: