58 replies to this topic

[iamchaossthought]

Sometimes it seems like the first player that damages enemies is the one that is targeted, while sometimes it seems like it is the first player that is seen by the enemies.

 

Thanks guys.  I did a brief search but couldn't find anything.

[Croatoan]

i'm wondering the same thing. hopefully someone can clarify this

[Drasca]

From what I've observed, there's four effective levels of threat, each supplanted by the next tier through specific means. The following is what I believe to be true.

 

All enemies follow a simple script. They don't go to the next line of the script until the current one is interrupted.

 

Zeroth level:
No threat. Pawns will continue their routines until aggro occurs.

 

Aggro'ed levels:

--Aggroed as groups.

--Individuals within the group will all be aggroed

--Other groups are not aggroed, only members within this group are aggroed if one member is aggroed

 

Line of sight:

First level of aggro

Will not aggro if not facing player

Limited range

Once aggroed, performs a 'yell' animation before commencing attack routine

 

Add mobs that spawn are tied to groups already placed on map.

 

If no other higher forms of threat occurs

Checks target list, immediately performs attack routine starting on pre-determined class preferences.

example: Spiders prefer necromancers. Will bee line to necromancer over Templar. Demon Commander will bee line to attacking rogue archer over keeper. If no archer, will attack keeper first.

 

I do not have the aggro table on hand.

 

Enemies are committed to the first target attack action unless interrupted directly, or with taunts. 

 

Damage / Threat

All attacks and skills generate threat overall, but direct damage overrides line of sight aggro once the mob has completed its first action.

 

Example, an assassin attacks an archer aiming at his player ally. Archer does not turn around to shoot assassin until finished shooting the initial arrow.

 

Templar Commander chases far away target. Leaves back open to assassin. Does not change chase until damage threshold goes below 75% / 50% / 25% for potion transition.

 

Some attack are not aggro table based. RTC Leap attack is one of these. DC yell is the same. Anyone within LOS and within about 4m in front of the DC while chasing another may trigger the DC to do his yell attack.

 

Increased damage taken from a certain player may change the relative threat level of the player. Once the threat level changes, the RTC will change targets after completing current action.

 

Burst damage is higher threat than continuous damage. There may be threat values attached to certain skills. Unknown.

 

Final level:

Taunt. Will override lower forms of aggro.

 

 

That's most of what I've discovered. I may be missing some parts, but that'll get you started.

[SofaJockey]

That's most of what I've discovered. I may be missing some parts, but that'll get you started.

 

Really good analysis, I was wondering about this.

[JRandall0308]

Explain why when a player spawns in, enemies will rush to engage him even if actively being attacked by other players.

[Drasca]

Explain why when a player spawns in, enemies will rush to engage him even if actively being attacked by other players.

 

Line of sight aggro rules. They go for the target highest on the aggro table list. You haven't actually hard aggro'ed anything via damage or taunt. Mobs still subject to completing animation, which usually doesn't take long.

 

Footsoldiers headturn where he stops and looks left and right is actually part of a check to redetermine targets.

 

Or are you referring to what happens when a mob is chasing a player and does not respond to being attacked by other players? (temporarily). Same rule as above. They have to complete their current task first unless interrupted. Damage alone usually isn't sufficient. Stagger / knockdown / incapacitate usually is. Taunt is.

[JRandall0308]

It can't be line of sight. You can be deep in the Zone when a new player enters back at the entry door. Enemies will rush past you to make a beeline for the entry door. They will utterly ignore anything you do to them, meaning you can be hacking at their backs, using abilities, whatever, while they rush pellmell for that new player.

 

I can't fathom how a new player who hasn't taken any actions yet could be higher on the threat table than players actively attacking enemies. That's just bad design.

[maxulic]

Line of sight aggro rules. They go for the target highest on the aggro table list. You haven't actually hard aggro'ed anything via damage or taunt. Mobs still subject to completing animation, which usually doesn't take long.

 

Footsoldiers headturn where he stops and looks left and right is actually part of a check to redetermine targets.

 

Or are you referring to what happens when a mob is chasing a player and does not respond to being attacked by other players? (temporarily). Same rule as above. They have to complete their current task first unless interrupted. Damage alone usually isn't sufficient. Stagger / knockdown / incapacitate usually is. Taunt is.

 

I think he meant when a player joins a party mid-run. For some reason mobs always run to the new person even when you pulled the group.

 

You see it easily when you are solo and suddenly someone joins in.

[capn233]

Poorly

[Innarra]

It's lame that enemies aggro to AFK players near the beginning door, or players that are loading in after the match has started. Enemies seem to ignore this entire table to go after defenseless players. You always have to run after them.

 

I suppose it's a nice indicator that you got a new player to join on public matches, or that someone is AFK and deserve a kick.

[Texasmotiv]

If i were a bad guy, I think I'd run for the guy at the door that can't move too.

[Drasca]

I think he meant when a player joins a party mid-run. For some reason mobs always run to the new person even when you pulled the group.

 

You see it easily when you are solo and suddenly someone joins in.

 

No, that's exactly what I mean . LoS aggro isn't individual based, it is group based. Entire groups aggro on entire groups, with Aggro tables and Animations determining the specifics who gets what target.

 

The new person actually has to be higher up on the aggro table for that to occur, which is likely given players like to play rogues and mages rather than warriors (because off-host sucks + barrier to entry issues).

 

Let's outline the situation:

 

Party A with 3 members aggro's Mob B with enemies X Y & Z

 

Enemy X is highly damaged or killed immediately. Y and Z are unfazed.

 

New Member N joins, higher on the aggro table than members in Party A.

 

Y & Z may have complete their animation, and are undamaged by Party A.

 

Y & Z will aggro on N

 

Party A finishes off Mob B

 

Mob C spawns with enemies J F K because Mob B was killed sufficiently

 

Mob C is automatically line of sight aggro'ed. They go to the highest target on their table: Member N

 

If Member N were lower on the aggro table list, Mob C would go for Party A instead.

 

If Party A contained a Necromancer that opened a door that spawned Spiders, they would go for the Necromancer first, skipping non-necro's.

 

Freshly line of sight aggroed enemies always follow their aggro table until interrupted to the next stage of their behaviour.

[akots1]

IMHO, Drasca might be right but it is hard to tell exactly.

Also, it seems that the newly spawned enemies have complete visibility of everything and no LoS restrictions. That is why that out-of-chest revenant goes for somebody who just joined as that player tops the target list. Not sure about necromancers and revenants, it seems that revenants go for weakest player first. Otherwise, the new spawn might get stuck and won't move to engage.

Another interesting thing is stealth detection. Not sure how aggro works in this case.

[Drasca]

IMHO, Drasca might be right but it is hard to tell exactly.

Also, it seems that the newly spawned enemies have complete visibility of everything and no LoS restrictions. That is why that out-of-chest revenant goes for somebody who just joined as that player tops the target list. Not sure about necromancers and revenants, it seems that revenants go for weakest player first. Otherwise, the new spawn might get stuck and won't move to engage.

Another interesting thing is stealth detection. Not sure how aggro works in this case.

 

IIRC, AW's are on the top of the Revenent list. Newly spawned enemies don't have complete visibility, but do start out aggro'ed to the Player group.

 

It isn't the 'new player that joined' per se, but whoever is on top of the aggro list.

 

Keep in mind some attacks have set conditions that are not aggro related, but usually proximity & LoS. DC's will chase you for days until someone shows up in front of him. Then he does his yell. RTC Leap attack is based upon proximity.

 

I repeat something has to trigger their scripted condition in order for them to change their decision. The AI is actually very simple individually, in part for CPU. It is not a super adaptive enemy that constantly changes its tactics, nor is it completely random, nor does it follow PuG superstitions. It has a set of rules it follows, and it follows that script like sheet music.

 

 

Another interesting thing is stealth detection. Not sure how aggro works in this case.

 

Two forms. One if you don't have improved stealth, you can 'bump' into an enemy and trigger being detected that way.

Secondly some enemies are tagged perceptive. Mainly Commanders and Dogs / Animals.  If you're within a certain distance of them for 5 seconds, you'll be unstealthed. Then normal aggro rules apply to you.

 

Note: Stealth does not stop animations. Enemies will complete their animations, especially their homing spikes that'll track and follow you. Stealth is most useful after these animations are done, so take cover first.

[akots1]

Two forms. One if you don't have improved stealth, you can 'bump' into an enemy and trigger being detected that way.

Secondly some enemies are tagged perceptive. Mainly Commanders and Dogs / Animals.  If you're within a certain distance of them for 5 seconds, you'll be unstealthed. Then normal aggro rules apply to you.

 

Note: Stealth does not stop animations. Enemies will complete their animations, especially their homing spikes that'll track and follow you. Stealth is most useful after these animations are done, so take cover first.

Yes, that I get. The unclear thing is whether detection of stealth automatically triggers aggro or it just puts rogue on the list as usual.

[Kinom001]

Part of it plays into passives as well, I believe. If a warrior class has "Biggest Threat" (I'm sure the names wrong, but go with me on this, dammit) or a rogue has "Easy to Miss" (again, same statement, dammit) it'll affect what target the enemy is going to attack. Without those and the variables change.

[Drasca]

Yes, that I get. The unclear thing is whether detection of stealth automatically triggers aggro or it just puts rogue on the list as usual.

 

List, however rogues are typically high on the list to begin with. Also keep in mind some of the attack behaviours are triggered by proximity & direction.

 

If you destealthed behind a group that's already engaged elsewhere, you'll remain un-aggroed until new behaviours step in.

 

Part of it plays into passives as well, I believe. If a warrior class has "Biggest Threat" (I'm sure the names wrong, but go with me on this, dammit) or a rogue has "Easy to Miss" (again, same statement, dammit) it'll affect what target the enemy is going to attack. Without those and the variables change.

 

The passives are harder to test. I believe they only make gaining damage aggro easier though.

 

Easy to miss prevents damage aggro gain completely when attacking from behind.

[Drasca]

About Stealth:

 

You stay on the threat table once you de-stealth. You are temporarily invisible to enemies for threat table purposes, but they can still react to your position upon initial aggro, or finish their current attack animation (ice beam, bow shots, horror spikes, etc) and track on you.

 

It is best to wait until these attack animations complete before stealth. Gain distance and find cover before then.

 

About Taunt:

 

Taunt is temporary for 10 seconds. Targets may revert to lower form of 'damage' / 'threat' priority afteward, if they're still alive but again only after they've completed their current action.

 

There are still unknowns that need to be tested, but I figure I'd add these tidbits while I can.

[ParthianShotX]

 

Two forms. One if you don't have improved stealth, you can 'bump' into an enemy and trigger being detected that way.

Secondly some enemies are tagged perceptive. Mainly Commanders and Dogs / Animals.  If you're within a certain distance of them for 5 seconds, you'll be unstealthed. Then normal aggro rules apply to you.

 

Enemy archers sometimes have enhanced perception it seems but it's not guaranteed.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

So what Drasca is saying, is that every type of enemy has a secret agro table that targets specific classes, and different enemies have different lists. If this is true, who the hell thought it would be a good idea? I seriously question the sanity of whoever thinks up awful ideas like that.

[Drasca]

Enemy archers sometimes have enhanced perception it seems but it's not guaranteed.

 

They don't. The 'perception' quality is generally limited to dogs and commanders. It reveals you from stealth if you're within X meters for 5 seconds. Note how long their weapon animations are for bows. If this animation started before stealth, their weapon tracking continues afterward. Arrows will also hit you if you're standing in front of them, whether you're the original target or not.

 

So what Drasca is saying, is that every type of enemy has a secret agro table that targets specific classes, and different enemies have different lists. If this is true, who the hell thought it would be a good idea? I seriously question the sanity of whoever thinks up awful ideas like that.

 

That is true and activated by line of sight until they're aggroed by a higher overriding means. It makes sense though. Wouldn't you want to kill the enemy rogues/archer/mages first?

[veramis]

Explain why when a player spawns in, enemies will rush to engage him even if actively being attacked by other players.

 

The Venatori went into the future and took GPS technology. Each Inquisition agent is tracked by satellite and enemies beeline for them as soon as their iPhones receive text notification that their group is under attack. Enjoy easy mode Venatori while you still can. It's only a matter of time before the Venatori Commander steals an Iron Man exosuit and rips you a new one.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

I would want to yes, but your examples make no sense (not you, the concept). How would anyone ever know that spiders don't like necromancers, is this some weird DA lore I never knew about? Every other game I have ever played in all my years playing games that involved some type of agro system worked the same way. You do more damage, you get more agro. You keep your threat level below someone else, they get attacked before you. Anything else doesn't make sense.

 

It doesn't make sense to engage a group of enemies only to have every single one decide to run down the hall and around the corner at someone else who wasn't in line of sight or attacking them in any way.

[capn233]

I would want to yes, but your examples make no sense (not you, the concept). How would anyone ever know that spiders don't like necromancers, is this some weird DA lore I never knew about? Every other game I have ever played in all my years playing games that involved some type of agro system worked the same way. You do more damage, you get more agro. You keep your threat level below someone else, they get attacked before you. Anything else doesn't make sense.

 

It doesn't make sense to engage a group of enemies only to have every single one decide to run down the hall and around the corner at someone else who wasn't in line of sight or attacking them in any way.

 

Is this based on empiric evidence (like viewing the tables), or superstition (like "more dots")?

[veramis]

It doesn't make sense to engage a group of enemies only to have every single one decide to run down the hall and around the corner at someone else who wasn't in line of sight or attacking them in any way.

 

It makes sense for real life players to beeline for high DPS NPC's, so why not have NPC's do the same? I don't think the AI in this game is particularly intelligent, but we have to admit there are unique strategic advantages and unpredictability to some of the quirky aspects of this game's Artificial Retardation (Bioware's innovative variation of Artificial Intelligence).