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#1
Alfonsedode

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I was trying to check the library for multiplicative and additive bonus, and ended up reading the tests from peddro, corlist aso on heasdhots (HS) :). As there R four or more of them I thought it might be useful to put all the info in one :) but i m sure it ll need corrections and reminders. And maybe some of it is not up to date

  • HS has a separate multiplier in weapon damage calculation. Most weapons have a 2.5 HS multiplier against mooks.
    So if U have a weapon base damage WBD, WD total additive bonus and no debuff you get for HS Damage = WBD*(1+WD)*2.5*defense multiplier.
  • Few weapons have a specific HS bonus against mooks instead of 2.5 (weapon summary by corlist):
    - * 4 : supressor.
    - * 3 : Locust, Geth Pulse Rifle, Valkyrie, Kishock Harpoon Gun, Graal Spike Thrower.
    - Other projectiles weapons do not get HSs.
  • Armor damage mitigation comes after the damage calculation. Meaning HS multiplicative nature does not multiply the armor mitigation. (cool)
  • Specific Defense multipliers are applied last and multiply everything.
  • HS modifiers do not enhance Ammo bonus damages. They are caclulated and applied first (except for Inci rounds whose damages are applied through 6 dot ticks separated by 0.5 sec).
  • HS bonus coming from passives (rank 5b) works as a classical additive WD bonus : its not added to the multiplicative HS one.
  • Vulnerability VI gear is also an additive bonus (+20% at level V).
  • Targetting VI weapon bonus are also additive. Level II is 25% and level III is 35% WD bonus.
  • Debuffs (concerning weapons) operate in the same multiplier as HS. So that they are multiplicative to WD bonus and additive to HS multiplier. Every details on the weapon damage formula can be found in this thread from peddro. But upper formula become : HS Damage = [WBD*(1+WD)*(2.5+1+ SumDebuffs)-ArmorDR]defense multiplier.
  • Tactical scan 5A evo is bugged and DOES NOTHING : not only it's not in the HS multiplicative bonus, but neither in the additive WD bonus. However, normal weapon debuff up to 32.5% is applied though as a multiplier.
  • Marksman 5B is working better than expected : you get a 1.3125 mutiplier damage bonus instead of an additive 25% : the classical 2.5 multiplier is transformed into 2.5*(1+0.3125)=3.28
  • Pistol Cranial Trauma system 5 is also multiplicative 1.4 HS bonus : 2.5*(1+0.4) = 3.5
  • Head Gib Chance varies from one weapon to another: Values are listed there.

Next few points concerns bosses and are often directly copy paste from “boss Headshots work BUT…” from peddro.

  • On boss, the HS multiplier is 1.4 whatever the gun (except for Praetorians). And this seem to act as a max capped value so that usual HS multiplier bonus tend to do nothing (see below)
  • The Bosses head shot locations are brutes head, the vent on the back of the atlas, the collection of skulls in the praetorian's lower abdomen, the prime's head, the banshee's head and the scion's head.
  • Praetorians suffer from an HS multiplier of 2.
  • Marksman "special" HS evolution that works so well vs regular enemies DOES NOTHING in case of boss headshots : Not only it is not in the HS multiplicative bonus, but neither in the additive WD bonus.
  • Pistol Cranial Trauma System V (pistol add-on), the other "special" HS modifier DOES NOTHING in case of boss headshots.
  • Other bonuses apply as usual in the WD bonus (targetting VI, passive 5B, vulnerability VI).
  • Debuffs work as usual.

Last few points concerns bosses specific locations or multiple hits:

  • Ravager sacs, Scions shoulder sac, Atlas knees, groin and shoulders plates suffering enough damage will all cause a stagger and a specific damage spike but are not actual headshots.
  • Ravager's sacs will allways break if hit. It then sustain a damage spike of 7.5 % of it's total armor pool.
  • Scions shoulder sac breaks if it suffer damage of 15% of the Scion total armor. The damage spike is then 20 % of their armor.
  • Atlas weak points are broken if hit for 5% of its global armor value. The damage spike is then 7 %.
  • Multiple hits on units mean hitting successively different subpiece along the bullet trajectory, each of them recording damage for themselves (up to breaking) and to the total armor pool point. With enough penetration Ravager (with sufficient angle, two sacs and the ravager itself) and Atlas (small canopy, canopy's inside, atlas itself) might suffer triples hits. Praetorian HS can also lead to a second normal hit. Banshees (with hand of denial raised) and Scion suffer double hits too.
  • For penetration amount needed, 1.80 m for both the Banshee and the phantom.
  • U can look at capn233's post too.
  • Phantom have complicated mechanics when bubbled and suffer double hits too. This thread and this deerber post contain most of the usefull info.
  • The turret does not have a weak point, but it's plate is a relatively large easy to shoot target.
  • Phantoms, Dragoon, Hunters, Pyros and other humanoid guys are in the mooks category regarding HS.
  • EDITED with inputs of Nucleartech76, Cato, MGW7, Annomander, Deerber, Tyhw aso.

Edited by Alfonsedode, 11 May 2016 - 12:52 PM.

  • Snow_Leopard25, filippopotame, FasterThanFTL and 6 others like this

#2
DeadeyeCYclops

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lol u ppl get too involved with the numbers of this game

#3
Alfonsedode

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procrastination...

#4
Jeremiah12LGeek

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A good compilation of information, thanks :)

#5
NuclearTech76

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Concerning #12: Praetorians I believe have a higher headshot multiplier as well. I think that was discovered in the multihit thread on Praetorians by tyhw. I'll try to link it.

Edit Below:

"In addition, Praetorian headshots actually do 2x damage, not 1.4x."

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/16695421#16695421

Edited by NuclearTech76, 11 February 2014 - 06:09 PM.


#6
Heldarion

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Brute has a 1.4 headshot multiplier, afaik.

#7
cato potato

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Phantoms are classed as a mook so you do get a 250% bonus for a headshot.

Ravager sacs; Atlas knee, groin and shoulder plates; and the Scion's shoulder sac suffering enough damage will all cause a stagger and a specific damage spike (though I can't find out what that figure is for the Ravager or Scion) but they're nothing to do with headshots as far as I know.
Brutes do have the typical boss headshot bonus of 1.4x and, as Nuke already pointed out, Praetorians have a 2x headshot multiplier for some reason.

#8
Ribosome

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all i know is to shoot the husk heads and that partoian gona die

#9
MGW7

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alfonsedode wrote.....
I am unclear what is included in the bosses special HS category : Ravager sacks, turrets plate, brute's elusive head, atlases 5 weakpoints and canopy, scion ? I have the impression Phantoms head are in the mook category.

And what am I missing again ? :)

The head shot locations are the brutes head, the vent on the back of the atlas, the collection of skulls in the praetorian's lower abdomen, the prime's head, the banshee's head, and the scion's head

the atlas's canopy can be hit twice by the same bullet, doubling the damage, but this requires lots of penetration, and it is not an actual headshot, the same goes for the ravager, which has no specific head

The shoulder sacs on scions deal extra damage when destroyed, but killing with a shot to the sacs does not provide headshot credit

the turret does not have a weak point, but it's plate is a relatively large easy to shoot target

as was said praetorians have a 2x multiplier on their headshot rather than the normal 1.4

phantoms, dragoons, pyros, and the likes are all mooks as far as headshots go

Edited by MGW7, 12 February 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#10
Miniditka77

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The thing about headshot bonuses is that they are all technically multiplicative, because the additive bonuses add to a multiplier.  So multiplicative headshot bonuses are "double-multiplicative" in a sense.  Makes the Cranial Trauma mod a little better than I expected.

#11
Kislitsin

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Miniditka77 wrote...

The thing about headshot bonuses is that they are all technically multiplicative, because the additive bonuses add to a multiplier.  So multiplicative headshot bonuses are "double-multiplicative" in a sense.  Makes the Cranial Trauma mod a little better than I expected.

Boss headshot bonuses are additive no matter what. HS bonus is a damage that will be applied in the case of headshot. Yet I see your point, that damage will be multiplied by the HS modifier, but as will any other damage sans ammo damage.

CTS is a crap for a primary weapon because it doesn't provide any damage bonus vs bawses.
HS passives are a good thing, it's a free 20-30% of base damage in the case of headshot, being actually  28-42% for most and 40-60% for crabs. And if we recall that crab's HS zone is his double-hit zone as well we have an 80-120% of additional base damage. That's why I think skipping HS on the weapon platforms is not wise.

[edit] That is the reason why Senturian is such a great lazor platform - good HS bonus in addition to already great passives and multiplicative debuff.
The only boss where HS are problematic is an atlas, but he can still be easily warped and oneclipped on plat due to multihits. The only boss which can't be routinely warped is the crab, but:
1. Senturian can 1clip non-possesed plat crab without warp with consistent HS
2. Unless I solo with a Destroyer or a Proxy-mine kit I have a habit to always land the crab first, dem teammates :pinched:...

Edited by Kislitsin, 11 February 2014 - 08:22 PM.


#12
FasterThanFTL

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Bookmarked.

#13
Miniditka77

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Kislitsin wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

The thing about headshot bonuses is that they are all technically multiplicative, because the additive bonuses add to a multiplier.  So multiplicative headshot bonuses are "double-multiplicative" in a sense.  Makes the Cranial Trauma mod a little better than I expected.

Boss headshot bonuses are additive no matter what. HS bonus is a damage that will be applied in the case of headshot. Yet I see your point, that damage will be multiplied by the HS modifier, but as will any other damage sans ammo damage.

CTS is a crap for a primary weapon because it doesn't provide any damage bonus vs bawses.
HS passives are a good thing, it's a free 20-30% of base damage in the case of headshot, being actually  28-42% for most and 40-60% for crabs. And if we recall that crab's HS zone is his double-hit zone as well we have an 80-120% of additional base damage. That's why I think skipping HS on the weapon platforms is not wise.

Oh, I agree with that.  On Platinum especially, you can't use the CTS if you rely on weapons to take down bosses.  But I'm considering trying it on my Arc Pistol Asari Adept.

#14
Alfonsedode

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Thx for all the inputs.
I wonder if the pyro flamer tank as a multiplier of one form or another ?

Kislitsin wrote...

Boss headshot bonuses are additive no matter what. HS bonus is a damage that will be applied in the case of headshot. Yet I see your point, that damage will be multiplied by the HS modifier, but as will any other damage sans ammo damage.


Well the 1.4 is multiplicative for all WD bonuses. It s just 1.4 instead of 2.5. But additive or multiplicative nature of things doesn't mean much without formula :).

#15
BridgeBurner

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On the topic of double / triple hits:

Phantoms, Banshees, Praetorians, Atlas, Scions and Ravagers all can be affected by "double hits" and in some cases, triple hits.

The atlas pawn is designed of 6 components, 4 of which are "destructible". The shoulder / groin plates are unimportant so ignore them. The remaining 3 components are the machine itself, the CENTRE canopy piece (the destructible one) and the smaller canopy sections; which are the same, only can't be destroyed (no code for it).

The destructible canopy and the small canopy sections are treated as pawns in their own right, despite being tied to the main Atlas Pawn. As the canopy sections are coded so they can "sustain damage" and are "destructible", they register damage versus their own armour pool (100k in MP) and the main atlas armour pool.

However, as they are considered "separate" and therefore resolve damage individually (to tally how much damage the canopy has sustained) you can hit them twice. Even a small amount of penetration will allow you to score double hits. Triple hits are ONLY achievable by striking the small canopy sections at the very edge; these register hits against themselves, the MAIN canopy (which must extend behind them) and the atlas itself. There are no garauntees of triple hits, but best results are obtained using shotguns (possible bug due to pellets?).

The same bug occurs with scions and ravagers. The destructible parts of the model count as pawns in their own right, but their sustained damage is linked to the main scion / ravager pawn, meaning penetration capable weapons carry damage over from the sac to the body for ravagers / scions as you hit 2 separate "pawns" which are classed as one. Ravager triple come from striking multiple sacs and the ravager model itself; possible only at specific angles.

Banshees, phantoms are praetorian "bubbles" essentially inflate the hit box and model "size" to the size of the visual effect of the shield; meaning hitting the shield will confer damage to the pawn. As the shield again is counted as a separate entity, shots can register twice; once against the body, once against the "shield".

However, LOTS of penetration is required as the bubble doesn't count as a "thin" object; the entire radius of the bubble leading to the actual enemy model counts as a solid object.

Due to the bubbles affecting the hit box of the enemy, I'm not entirely sure if this was fully intended or not, or just improper coding.

The atlas, ravager, scion double / triple hits are bugs, confirmed by Bioware. They even tried fixing the double hit bug for the atlas pawn; but that would involve having to implement an entirely new atlas pawn, with changes to its model and its coding.

Edited by Annomander, 11 February 2014 - 08:43 PM.


#16
MGW7

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alfonsedode wrote...

Thx for all the inputs.
I wonder if the pyro flamer tank as a multiplier of one form or another ?


The tank has it's own invisible health meter, and explodes when it reaches zero, after so much damage the tank cracks and starts to lose the rest of it's health slowly on it's own,

I don't know what the tanks health is, but I am guessing it is proportional to the pyro's health

#17
BridgeBurner

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MGW7 wrote...

alfonsedode wrote...

Thx for all the inputs.
I wonder if the pyro flamer tank as a multiplier of one form or another ?


The tank has it's own invisible health meter, and explodes when it reaches zero, after so much damage the tank cracks and starts to lose the rest of it's health slowly on it's own,

I don't know what the tanks health is, but I am guessing it is proportional to the pyro's health


The tank health is separate, but the tank can't be "destroyed" as such, it just has to sustain damage before it blows, killing the pyro, it's not strictly a "destructible" component (even though it explodes....) so I'm not convinced it'll yield double hits.

#18
Alfonsedode

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@annomander : I am getting a bit of your separate pawns model. But if the canopy separate armor pool is 100k and if shots on it damage both the (full 27k on plat) atlas armor pool and the canopy one ...

#19
BridgeBurner

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alfonsedode wrote...

@annomander : I am getting a bit of your separate pawns model. But if the canopy separate armor pool is 100k and if shots on it damage both the (full 27k on plat) atlas armor pool and the canopy one ...


Yeah, the damage is doubled up to the "total" armour pool; once for the canopy hit and once for the machine.

The 100k armour for the canopy is the max damage it can sustain before breaking. This is so we can't break the canopy in multiplayer, as there is no pilot, so it would be an empty atlas shooting at us...
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#20
Silvershroud

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Annomander wrote...

The 100k armour for the canopy is the max damage it can sustain before breaking. This is so we can't break the canopy in multiplayer, as there is no pilot, so it would be an empty atlas shooting at us...


It's too bad.  I'd love to hop into an ATLAS in MP like you can in SP.  Granted, you'd proably die in seconds in there, but still...

#21
ROBOTICSUPERMAN

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this thread needs more numbers!

#22
Deerber

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Can someone please provide a source for Scion's sacks giving the headshot bonus? I wasn't aware of that.

#23
Sentient Toaster

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...so, depending on team setup (high-penetration firepower, little dependence on powers) it might actually be preferable to provoke the bubbles to get multiple hits?

#24
Deerber

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Sentient Toaster wrote...

...so, depending on team setup (high-penetration firepower, little dependence on powers) it might actually be preferable to provoke the bubbles to get multiple hits?



Arguably yes for Phantoms and Banshees. For Praetorians no, as it can already be double hit without the bubble up and the required penetration is a lot lower - the one needed to double hit with the bubble up is pretty insane, actually. So, try to never force a praetorian bubble, as it only does bad things.

#25
Tybo

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Annomander wrote...

On the topic of double / triple hits:

Phantoms, Banshees, Praetorians, Atlas, Scions and Ravagers all can be affected by "double hits" and in some cases, triple hits.

The atlas pawn is designed of 6 components, 4 of which are "destructible". The shoulder / groin plates are unimportant so ignore them. The remaining 3 components are the machine itself, the CENTRE canopy piece (the destructible one) and the smaller canopy sections; which are the same, only can't be destroyed (no code for it).

The destructible canopy and the small canopy sections are treated as pawns in their own right, despite being tied to the main Atlas Pawn. As the canopy sections are coded so they can "sustain damage" and are "destructible", they register damage versus their own armour pool (100k in MP) and the main atlas armour pool.

However, as they are considered "separate" and therefore resolve damage individually (to tally how much damage the canopy has sustained) you can hit them twice. Even a small amount of penetration will allow you to score double hits. Triple hits are ONLY achievable by striking the small canopy sections at the very edge; these register hits against themselves, the MAIN canopy (which must extend behind them) and the atlas itself. There are no garauntees of triple hits, but best results are obtained using shotguns (possible bug due to pellets?).

The same bug occurs with scions and ravagers. The destructible parts of the model count as pawns in their own right, but their sustained damage is linked to the main scion / ravager pawn, meaning penetration capable weapons carry damage over from the sac to the body for ravagers / scions as you hit 2 separate "pawns" which are classed as one. Ravager triple come from striking multiple sacs and the ravager model itself; possible only at specific angles.

Banshees, phantoms are praetorian "bubbles" essentially inflate the hit box and model "size" to the size of the visual effect of the shield; meaning hitting the shield will confer damage to the pawn. As the shield again is counted as a separate entity, shots can register twice; once against the body, once against the "shield".

However, LOTS of penetration is required as the bubble doesn't count as a "thin" object; the entire radius of the bubble leading to the actual enemy model counts as a solid object.

Due to the bubbles affecting the hit box of the enemy, I'm not entirely sure if this was fully intended or not, or just improper coding.

The atlas, ravager, scion double / triple hits are bugs, confirmed by Bioware. They even tried fixing the double hit bug for the atlas pawn; but that would involve having to implement an entirely new atlas pawn, with changes to its model and its coding.


Awesome stuff anno.

Do you know anything about brutes? I've seen feneckus's one shot video with the javelin but that shouldn't be possible without a double hit. However, corlist and I tried it extensively and haven't seen any double hits...