766 replies to this topic

[Pork]

I saw this video today along with another thread on here surrounding Cool Beats usage on Perilous FC. 

 

Here is the video: 

 

 

There is also a video I saw by our own Wavebend here, which has him solo up to wave 5 (iirc) with a similar playstyle to the one in the guide. 

 

Pretty solid proof that cool beats is probably the best offensive ability for ZITHER. 

 

EDIT:

 

It seems this CB/PC debate can only be settled by a THUNDERDOME!

 

THUNDERDOME RULES:

 

• FC Storm Dragon with faction boss
• Demons
• Main Damage source must be CB for Snakebite and PC for Drasca; other abilities are allowed.
• 11:59 PM GMT on Sunday is the deadline.
• Fastest time wins the main challenge.

 

Vote for who you want to win here: Link

 

Snakebites entry so far: 

 

Level 14 ZITHER! vs Demons - 11.53

 

 

 

Drascas entry so far:

 

 

Has not submitted any valid entries so far.

[yarpenthemad21]

 

 

Pretty solid proof that cool beats is probably the best offensive ability for ZITHER. 

 

Power Cord is best offensive ability zither has. Not cool beats.

Cool beats use "worst" type of elemental damage, require precise aiming and even damage isn't that great, when we all know that burst is the king.

On your video it's easy to see that one stalker almost killed you, just because you wanted for some strange reason hit it with cool beats. You even changed song to barrier and let party kill it. This video pretty much showed everything not that great with cool beats, so problem when you stay on cool beats song, something ambushed you and you need change song and deal with enemy somehow. If you stayed on power cord or barrier you would just ignored this stalker.

 

Problem with virtuoso in general is simple:

1) Reaction is long when you want to change from one song to another. It's also lag sensitive. If I had cool beats and power cord on 2 separate buttons I could just alternate them and use cool beats to the fullest, but it's not working that way. Delay + pushing several buttons is slow.

2)Cool beats kill time is very high. those ticks for 500 maybe looks cool but if you think that generic unit has around 4k health (so you need 8 ticks) it does not look that great.

3) General problem with DoT damage. Cool beats last long enough and has enough damage to kill targets (even groups of standing archers for example) when cast on them. But you need to w8 for it. Because of it damage is wasted. Party members would also target those enemies (every sane player should target stacked group of units) and they just attack it to death. So in general you will get maybe 3 ticks of damage (even your short video shows it) so in general you deal with cool beats quite low damage.

Also venatori faction tend to "stack" the most, on demons where wraith spread all over the place and units in general move aoe power of cool beats does not shine so much. You also need to change targets constantly to use cool beats in proper way, which is also annoying.

[Pork]

Power Cord is best offensive ability zither has. Not cool beats

 

Both are good. On zone 3 and 4 FC, id much rather have cool beats over power chord. Cool beats is not burst damage, true, but you can stack it, which can grant you 30+ killstreaks with ease. It also can't be blocked like power chord can.

 

Point is, you don't need to choose between them, you can just take both. 

[Wavebend]

Power Cord is best offensive ability zither has. Not cool beats.

Cool beats use "worst" type of elemental damage, require precise aiming and even damage isn't that great, when we all know that burst is the king.

On your video it's easy to see that one stalker almost killed you, just because you wanted for some strange reason hit it with cool beats. You even changed song to barrier and let party kill it. This video pretty much showed everything not that great with cool beats, so problem when you stay on cool beats song, something ambushed you and you need change song and deal with enemy somehow. If you stayed on power cord or barrier you would just ignored this stalker.

 

Problem with virtuoso in general is simple:

1) Reaction is long when you want to change from one song to another. It's also lag sensitive. If I had cool beats and power cord on 2 separate buttons I could just alternate them and use cool beats to the fullest, but it's not working that way. Delay + pushing several buttons is slow.

2)Cool beats kill time is very high. those ticks for 500 maybe looks cool but if you think that generic unit has around 4k health (so you need 8 ticks) it does not look that great.

3) General problem with DoT damage. Cool beats last long enough and has enough damage to kill targets (even groups of standing archers for example) when cast on them. But you need to w8 for it. Because of it damage is wasted. Party members would also target those enemies (every sane player should target stacked group of units) and they just attack it to death. So in general you will get maybe 3 ticks of damage (even your short video shows it) so in general you deal with cool beats quite low damage.

Also venatori faction tend to "stack" the most, on demons where wraith spread all over the place and units in general move aoe power of cool beats does not shine so much. You also need to change targets constantly to use cool beats in proper way, which is also annoying.

 

Both are good. On zone 3 and 4 FC, id much rather have cool beats over power chord. Cool beats is not burst damage, true, but you can stack it, which can grant you 30+ killstreaks with ease. It also can't be blocked like power chord can.

 

Point is, you don't need to choose between them, you can just take both. 

 

+1. Just take both, and upgrade power chords for the dispel effect. Useful on despair demons / venatori mages.

[Drasca]

Both are good. On zone 3 and 4 FC, id much rather have cool beats over power chord. Cool beats is not burst damage, true, but you can stack it, which can grant you 30+ killstreaks with ease. It also can't be blocked like power chord can.

 

Point is, you don't need to choose between them, you can just take both. 

 

While I have both, over 90% of the time CB is wasted as both my party and myself have the ability to 1-2 shot enemies. If the enemy is electric vulnerable, I find myself often doing 4k damage and killing the enemy outright in one PC.

 

Offensive players should have critical damage bonus items. CB afaik is not affected by criticals.

 

CB is the best option vs Templars at long range, especially horrors. However, the shield bearers can just block CB. PC + Hot Licks remain the best option vs DD's, and generally all forms of demons except Pride. Pride is the only real target for CB.

 

Forget 30+ killstreaks, I get 50+ with power chord and kill faster.

 

CB is also bugged for encore, whereas direct damage does trigger encore, further reducing CB's usefulness.

 

CB has its place as a long range attack, but anything within 15 meters is better suited toward Power chord if it isn't resistent to electric.

[Pork]

While I have both, over 90% of the time CB is wasted as both my party and myself have the ability to 1-2 shot enemies.

 

Irrelevant. This is not a demonstration of an elite party, its showcasing an individual skill. If I roll with 3 good teammates then I likely wouldn't bother with cool beats at all with the exception of a few situations. 95% of people don't have the luxury of a full team all the time though so this is a moot point.

 

CB afaik is not affected by criticals.

 

Do you have a proof of this? There is different values throwing up in both videos I linked, though this could be attributed to another passive at work.

 

CB is the best option vs Templars at long range, especially horrors. However, the shield bearers can just block CB. PC + Hot Licks remain the best option vs DD's, and generally all forms of demons except Pride. Pride is the only real target for CB.

 

CB is best vs archers that aren't in power chord range. Wraiths die in two secondary ticks to cool beats aswell, though again, id rather have power chord vs DDs, fear demons and shades.

 

Forget 30+ killstreaks, I get 50+ with power chord and kill faster.

 

Totally irrelevant epeen comment.

 

CB is also bugged for encore, whereas direct damage does trigger encore, further reducing CB's usefulness.

 

Completely false. You can verify this yourself by watching either of the two videos I linked and checking the mana bar.

[Drasca]

Just saw who the video is from and what's being promoted. Ugh another PF clone account. Time to put on ignore.

[Pork]

Ugh another PF clone. Time to put on ignore.

 

So rather than actually debate my points you just throw a tantrum when its clear that half of your argument is either irrelevant or just plain incorrect? Real mature, though thats what I come to expect from elitists such as yourself.

[FRZN]

Do you have a proof of this? There is different values throwing up in both videos I linked, though this could be attributed to another passive at work.

I didn't see it crit in the video. I did see an AW using chain lightning though, which is why it was sometimes ticking for 900.

[capn233]

Cool beats does more damage if you can overlap enough AOEs.  Whether or not you will depends on several things.

 

If I absolutely have to pick one or the other for a team game I might just go Power Chord since the upgrade is essentially Dispel.

[yarpenthemad21]

Both are good. On zone 3 and 4 FC, id much rather have cool beats over power chord. Cool beats is not burst damage, true, but you can stack it, which can grant you 30+ killstreaks with ease. It also can't be blocked like power chord can.

 

Point is, you don't need to choose between them, you can just take both. 

 

I know I can choose both of them. My main problem with cool beats is that I waste time and effort on aiming with it and most of the time all my effort is wasted, because target is just dead right after and I can't just tell everybody in party "don't touch my targets".

 

Main problem for this type of gameplay where you stay on cool beats as default song is that you are just easy targets for ambush. Some stalker, shadow, even knockdown could be lethal in this situation, because right after cc you need to push still few buttons and after that use barrier or power cord. 

That's why I mostly stay on either power cord or barrier song which makes cool beats a song used not that often when I see good target for it. But still it's more a matter of pushing harder, maximizing damage, which does not change match result, just gives me maybe few more kills.

[Texasmotiv]

Why does everyone who posts penguin's videos include some sort of flamebait statement at the end of the post:

 

 

Pretty solid proof that cool beats is probably the best offensive ability for ZITHER.

 

 

Instead of just echoing the point of the video which was, "I made a build, try it out!"?

[Proto]

Offensive players should have critical damage bonus items. CB afaik is not affected by criticals.

 

CB is also bugged for encore, whereas direct damage does trigger encore, further reducing CB's usefulness.

 

CB has its place as a long range attack, but anything within 15 meters is better suited toward Power chord if it isn't resistent to electric.

 

Cool beats does in fact crit all the time. On Xbox encore earned with Cool Beats works correctly whereas those earned with Power Chord do not.

 

Also, swordsmen can't block coolbeats. They can block Power Chord. 

[Laforgus]

Power Cord is best offensive ability zither has. Not cool beats.

 

+1

 

What i do:

 

Stay in the back,

Spot Enemy group

Fill my barrier

Get Speed

Spam the PC dancing around enemy.

Repeat!

 

ps:

Team? whats that food?

[Pork]

Why does everyone who posts penguin's videos include some sort of flamebait statement at the end of the post:

 

 

 

Instead of just echoing the point of the video which was, "I made a build, try it out!"?

 

I posted two videos, im yet to see someone solo as well as wavebend did with a power chord centered build. Also, I didn't make this build, I didn't think of it, nor did I adapt it in any way whatsoever. I initially watched wavebends solo, then I found a video on youtube of someone who commentated over the build, then I posted it, along with my opinion, which is worded to create discussion. As you can see, discussion has taken place, with some arguing for and against my statement. I don't understand what your issue is with this.

[Texasmotiv]

I posted two videos, im yet to see someone solo as well as wavebend did with a power chord centered build. Also, I didn't make this build, I didn't think of it, nor did I adapt it in any way whatsoever. I initially watched wavebends solo, then I found a video on youtube of someone who commentated over the build, then I posted it, along with my opinion, which is worded to create discussion. As you can see, discussion has taken place, with some arguing for and against my statement. I don't understand what your issue is with this.

 

I apologize, I must have misinterpreted your post to be Combative. Carry on.

[sonofbarak]

I think this build is good for routine only.

[Robbiesan]

why not both?  they are both valuable abilities.  Cool Beats is great for ranged attacks, where Power Chord is great for CQC.  I do not see the point of arguing over which is a better ability since both have their appropriate situational usages.  Your playstyle will dictate which you use (at all, or when).

[Drasca]

Cool beats does in fact crit all the time. On Xbox encore earned with Cool Beats works correctly whereas those earned with Power Chord do not.

 

Also, swordsmen can't block coolbeats. They can block Power Chord. 

 

Show me some CB crits, preferably with video, though SS will do. As for encore, its more likely to get encore from PC than CB in 90% of the situations. Solo kiting the RTC is one of the that I don't. I don't play XB1, so can't comment there. On PC however, I can repeat PC after PC, and can produce video if need be (though I already have video really).

 

CB can be blocked by footsoldiers. It just depends on whether the enemy is in a blocking state or not. Even the guys with shields that charge have non-blocking states sometimes--particularly when they're attacking. Learning when they can and cannot block, and being able to force that behaviour, is part of DAMP skill mastery.

 

 

 

Cool beats does more damage if you can overlap enough AOEs.  Whether or not you will depends on several things.

 

If I absolutely have to pick one or the other for a team game I might just go Power Chord since the upgrade is essentially Dispel.

 

PC is absolutely more DPS. "more damage" is undefined. Do you mean damage per time or damage per mana? Because in a crowded situation, PC wins both due to encore triggering immediately. Ideally you have killer set, and mix basic attacks in between as needed to finish (or weaken for PC to finish) enemies off for more encores.
 

In an ultra ranged situation, aka across the map, CB wins because Zither needs to travel . . . but that's only against cold vulnerable or no cold resist enemies that are lightly clustered. Fire vulnerable individual enemies like despair demons are better off basic attacked with killer set, and very dense enemies can wait for cover.

[Pork]

I apologize, I must have misinterpreted your post to be Combative. Carry on.

 

Not at all. Im actually a fan of both abilities, there was just talk that cool beats is useless, which I strongly disagree with. This was just making a point for the blue corner

 

@Douchesca, PC is more DPS in CQC, this is true, but it deals zero dps at any enemy which is more than 8m away from you, which is the point cpn233 was making.

[SpaceV3gan]

Wait, is Pork a Peguin clone? Am I missing something?


Well, regarding Cold Beats, I personally love this ability and I use it as my main (and often my only) Zither spam ability. Is Power Chord better? Probably. But I just like the laid back playstyle of Cold Beats spam too much.

[Pork]

Wait, is Pork a Peguin clone? Am I missing something?


Well, regarding Cold Beats, I personally love this ability and I use it as my main (and often my only) Zither spam ability. Is Power Chord better? Probably. But I just like the laid back playstyle of Cold Beats spam too much.

 

Your missing the irrational mindset of someone who cannot stand other people being right and having different opinions. I played with PF back in the ME3MP days, but haven't spoken to him since. I am subbed to him on YT, because frankly, there is noone else (except Mortiel who I discovered through BSN) who even comes close in terms of producing actual informative guides. I don't really get why this is such a touchy subject (or maybe its just drasca, idk)

[kmeeg]

hahaha.. fun build with 'Cool Beats' and 'Little knights music', thanks for the heads up!

 

I just tried a solo run on FC vs. Red Templars & Frost dragon with a similar build.

 

Stats:

51 kill streak

312 total kills

31.8k xp

Dragon kill loot: "Superior Dalish Bow" 

 

 

 

P.s. I got fairly high promotions which helps A LOT with my "not so uber micro" playing skillz

[Snakebite]

CB is also bugged for encore, whereas direct damage does trigger encore, further reducing CB's usefulness.

 

On Xbox One, this is exactly the other way around.  I reviewed a clip where I only used encore for a few zones and about half of the kills with PC triggered an encore, and about half of those still took mana away when casting the next song (so it works approximately 1/4 of the time.  CB has never triggered a bugged encore.  I can provide video evidence if you would like.

 

CB can be blocked by footsoldiers. It just depends on whether the enemy is in a blocking state or not. Even the guys with shields that charge have non-blocking states sometimes--particularly when they're attacking. Learning when they can and cannot block, and being able to force that behaviour, is part of DAMP skill mastery.

 

Not once have I seen a footsoldier block CB.  I even sat and tried to get some footsoldiers to block one by alternating casting HL and CB back and forth at them; HL was blocked about half the time, CB not once.  I would gladly provide evidence of this, but seeing as it could just be refuted by stating that I only chose occasions where it was not blocked to put forth, I won't.  Unless anyone posts a clip of CB being blocked, I will continue to trust my personal experience instead of something someone wrote on the internet.

 

All in all, I find CB to be significantly more useful than PC.  I can just run past mooks while casting CB at them and continue on to the next spawn, leaving most, if not all, to die long before they catch up to me.  Even from a relatively short distance (say 10 yards), I can cast just two at a couple of archers and they will be dead before I can close to PC range.  Couple this with the fact that you can continue to deal damage even while switching to other songs, the fact that encore always activates from kills, and the fact that Long Solo increases its duration, and it's no wonder why I prefer CB.  That's not to say I don't like PC; I love PC.  I just can not use it nearly as effectively without starving myself of mana.

[Drasca]

All in all, I find CB to be significantly more useful than PC.  I can just run past mooks while casting CB at them and continue on to the next spawn, leaving most, if not all, to die long before they catch up to me.  Even from a relatively short distance (say 10 yards), I can cast just two at a couple of archers and they will be dead before I can close to PC range.  Couple this with the fact that you can continue to deal damage even while switching to other songs, the fact that encore always activates from kills, and the fact that Long Solo increases its duration, and it's no wonder why I prefer CB.  That's not to say I don't like PC; I love PC.  I just can not use it nearly as effectively without starving myself of mana.

 

You find CB more effective because that's what you know how to play and at the difficulty and ranges you play at. You don't know how to maximize PC.

 

What difficulty are you playing, and what maps? Sounds like old maps and threatening or below from what you describe, because you wouldn't be able to pull running past enemy archers/horrors/despair demons off in FC without a lot cunning, knight music, and willpower against the ranged physical and magic attacks on Perilous Castle. If you're able to pull perilous FC, please do share video and demonstrate for everyone how you do it, as that'd only help everyone involved.

 

I've used CB to kite just as you've described too, but enemies don't die as fast as you describe on perilous. On old maps and threatening and below, I just fast beats and PC through everything because they're dead from the first PC (or second), and it triggers encore. There is some skill involved in when to PC, maximizing PC's AoE via positioning yourself and enemies into clusters of course. It won't matter if encore only triggers half or even 1/4 as you say, if you're hitting 12 targets at once (or even four, considering your supposed 1/4th). Again, we can't disprove each other's platforms, since we are different platforms, but we can demonstrate what happens on each other's platforms.

 

Re: Effective ranges and # of targets for CB vs PC

 

What you've done is described the optimum and near optimum distances and usages for CB. i.e. few enemies, long distances. At 10 yards you should be taking cover on Perilous vs archers. At 2 enemies and long distance, (10 meters is outside of strike range, and outside of attack within 2 second range vs archers).

 

Basically, you're doing it wrong with PC. You need to maximize cover and clustering of enemies. 2 and below is pushing it for PC efficiency unless the enemy is small like a Deepstalker. I cannot prove what happens on an xb1 since I don't own one, but I can show what happens on PC.

 

 I can provide more video of course, but I already have video of myself using PC (although not as well as I do it now).

 

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